Internal WIP thread

Discuss artwork in all of its forms here, from level design to GUI button themes. New MODs planning, work-in-progress and other samples are welcome in this forum as well.
Sindwiller
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Post by Sindwiller » 2006-07-26, 16:32

Carsten wrote:You'll have to ask Dodger about it:
http://www.ca3d-engine.de/phpBB2/profil ... rofile&u=8

Tell him I said it's okay. ;)
Uhm, well. Ive writed him a PM but he does not respond :shock:

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Thrawn
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Post by Thrawn » 2006-07-26, 16:44

He might not use it anymore, I try to contact him at the weekend :)
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Sindwiller
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Post by Sindwiller » 2006-07-26, 18:46

Anyway, what is going with parallax mapping? ;) Its a very nice feature, you know... :D Or it'll be implemented later?

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Kai
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Post by Kai » 2006-07-26, 19:05

I had some discussion with Thrawn about this feature.
The result was, that parallax/offset mapping can be used in some (!) situations, but there are much more negative side-effects (need ps 2.0 or higher, artifacts at steep angles).. so it will be implemented when there is time for such eyecandy.

So far the only really well solution would be virtual displacement mapping, an advanced and more improved version, without artifacts, but still high hardware requirements.

At the moment we need to focus on important things, like own textures, scripting, more relevant features in CaWe like lights and other entities.. :)
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Thrawn
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Post by Thrawn » 2006-07-26, 19:37

Some more static models...

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The preview image has been edited to look better than it actually is :P Click on it to see a full, unedited screenshot of the scene ;)

What you see are 6 different box models and 4 textures with the sizes (only diffuse):

256x256
128x128
128x128
64x64

Next statics on my todo-list: wooden crates :)

PS: THe shelf is too bright, I am going to edit the textures to a mid grey value and I think I will also create a dark gey metal version...
Last edited by Thrawn on 2006-07-26, 19:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Sindwiller
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Post by Sindwiller » 2006-07-26, 19:44

So far the only really well solution would be virtual displacement mapping, an advanced and more improved version, without artifacts, but still high hardware requirements.
Parallax mapping is Virtual Displacement Mapping. If you dont believe me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallax_Mapping

Also, youre maybe talking about is either Parallax Occlusion Mapping (something like a improved Parallax-Mapping) or Relief Mapping (uhm, REAL Displacement Mapping). Ive found a very nice article about POM (way too long name^^) on gd.net. http://www.gamedev.net/columns/hardcore/pom/

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Thrawn
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Post by Thrawn » 2006-07-26, 19:52

The Wikipedia article misleads as it is just wrong.

There are differences in the results as Kai stated as there are NO definite names for techniques.

What we call Parallax mapping (also called Better bumb Mapping) is an effect that lets the walls look 3D from high angles, but leads do artifacs and plain 2d looks when the viewing angle is low.

Virtual Displacement Mapping (also called Steep Parallax Mapping, Relief Mapping, Offset Maping) uses another technique and looks 3D even if there are low viewing angles.

That's at least the way I do remember our research showed the majority of people uses. So

Anyway, this topic (how the techniques are named) is just not worth discussing about because everybody uses other names. The only thing that does matter is performance in comparison to the ingame results. As Ca3DE has a fantastic material system, it is maybe even possible to integrate both techniques by using specific keywords. Let's see.

Anyway, as Kai said, there are MUCH MUCH MUCH more important things to do right now so let's wait for 3-4 months before considering it as important to add.

SO: This is the wrong thread for discussions, please don't turn it off-topic ;)
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Kai
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Post by Kai » 2006-07-26, 22:08

Yup, its a quite confusing theme, due to the lack of proper nomenclature..

The fact is: There are more ways and names for similiar effects.
But only 2 are really different (in visual result and perfomance)

So Parallax mapping is indeed NOT virtual displacement mapping, the article on wikipedia ist simply wrong (and its not the only wrong part on this small article ^^)

Parallax/offset moves texel perpendicular to the real surfaces (z-axis) while relief or virtual displacement additional calculates angles for every texel (think of a terrain surfaces where all quads have different angles as well).
This is all calculated in tangentspace of the "real" surface.
Real displacement mapping would result in tesselating the underlying mesh an so resulting in a higher polycount.
This is something that is today not really an option in realtime applications, but commonly used in 3D software to increase realism (also referred as micropoly-displacement like in Renderman)

There was a nice demo from a guy who implemented 3 techniqes of surface distortion (parallax/offset/displacement) to demonstrate the different effects.
Btw.: The unreal 3 engine uses virtual displacement mapping as its aiming for latest hardware (of course XD )


Thrawn:
The new boxes are quite nice only thing that really distracts is the blue "stripe" .. whats whith that ?
Oh and i never saw material with hazardous and explosiv signs packed in ordinary boxes (on a shelf !!)
However did this was either quite courage or quite stupid :)
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Thrawn
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Post by Thrawn » 2006-07-27, 02:47

Kai wrote:Thrawn:
The new boxes are quite nice only thing that really distracts is the blue "stripe" .. whats whith that ?
Oh and i never saw material with hazardous and explosiv signs packed in ordinary boxes (on a shelf !!)
However did this was either quite courage or quite stupid :)
That is robust "Klebestreifen", which are wide and gray, they are really hard to get rid of if they are once placed on an object. Maybe you know them better with the color brown. They only look blue because of the player lighting in the scene.

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Yes, I know that it is quite strange to see both toxic and explosive materials in a simple shelf. But I wanted to have something strange, cause the techdemo should be strange itself to be mysterious :D Also note that this is not impossible, you only have to plant various liquids in there, what human sanity normaly would prevent because of the danger ;) Experiments with such dangerous and mysterious materials could have been the source of "the accident" ;) Well if you think that this idea isn't genius and does NOT look strange and dangerous, then of course I can get rid of the toxic warning sticker :wink:
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Post by Carsten » 2006-07-27, 09:12

Hi all,

well, I'll not participate in the discussion about parallax mapping, as this can be added to the MatSys later with relative ease and at arbitrary quality/technique level; and, as has already been pointed out, there are more important issues first.

Thrawn, I like your shelf with the boxes a lot. The only "objection" that I have is that the edges of the boxes look too clean. Normally, the edges look somehow torn and dirty, because boxes (made of either carton or wood) are normally stored on dirty ground (at least at some point in their transport pipeline), they soak up water (rain) or other liquids from the ground at the edges first, and they are usually put hard on the ground or against walls so that their edges become slightly crushed or rounded.

:idea: If you want me too, I can take photographs of real carton-made boxes over the weekend (on Sunday) -- I have access to them in thousands. ;) So I could pick a few nice specimen, and take photographs of them of all six sides...
Best regards,
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Thrawn
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Post by Thrawn » 2006-07-27, 12:46

I already tried to let them look dirty and as they do contain dangerous materials they might have handled with care, though I would much appreciate further reference material Carsten.

I could add quite some damage to the boxes with normal maps, as I want to keep the current polycount as it is. I could also create further boxes "Kartons" which feature less harmfull materials and could like this, be more damaged. I wouldn't throw them through the room when they contain toxic liquids *g

***EDIT:***

Did further research.

1. @ Kai: The brown version of my glue stripes in action ;)

2. @ Carsten. I don't want the boxes that contain hazardous materials look that damaged, that is too irrational when it comes to safety :P But I can damage those boxes that don't contain dangerous materials and I can create other boxes with no such liquids which can be damaged quite hard. The normal map could simulate some effects like this.

***EDIT2:***

OK did a quick test and applied a test normal map on a box. Click me
I think that looks OK, though the test texture of course lets the box look too damaged :) I will change the uvmap of some models so you can't see that on all sides there are the same normal maps...
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Post by Kai » 2006-07-27, 16:24

Hmm i just wonder why the color is so intense blue of those stripes ..
I mean , look the paper is brown and the board is nearly white even with the blueish player light. But that stripe is "very" blue, so it looks like the diffuse is having a blue strip..

Still confuses me XD

I would add a normal map too, but not like the test version you showed up .. i mean, i got lots of these here as well and its quite hard to penetrate them to get these holes.. i would rather use the normalmap for round edges so the boxes look not like sharp edged cubes, and additional i would add small color spots simulating dirt or scratches, wet spots or whatever in to the diffuse map (no normalmap effect) .. maybe (if the resolution can match up) you could try to put the "rib" effect into the normalmap, but very subtle !!

At least its your model, so feel free to experiment ;)

Tip: Boxes need a maximum of three sides of different uv surfaces, because:
1. its impossible to see more than 3 faces on a cube at the same time
2. Top, bottom and side for cubic boxes or top and two different sides for scaled boxes (non uniform) is quite going a nice result, the rest can be mirrored :)
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Thrawn
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Post by Thrawn » 2006-07-27, 16:45

Click me Believe me, the stripes are grey!! I used the desaturate tool, there is no chance that it is blue. When the player light is deactivated and it still looks blue -_-, I'll make the stripes brown, I promise *g

About the rest, you are right, I am going to test some things out :) I'll keep you up to date ;)
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Thrawn
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Post by Thrawn » 2006-07-28, 15:19

OK, I can't get them better now, here is the final result.

Click me

***EDIT:***

Redid a lot of stuff, the boxes are finished now.
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Sindwiller
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Post by Sindwiller » 2006-08-01, 17:07

The Wikipedia article misleads as it is just wrong.
Damn you Wikipedia, damn you! :x :lol:

Anyway, ive got a "small" problem. I wanted to clean out my album in the official ca3de-galleries so i deleted it, because i tought, it wont delete the album itself but only the content. Now, ive deleted it and i dont have a album anymore :roll:

Wfr, Sindwiller
Im Working on:
- Some Linux Bash-Scripts for installing stuff. Dont ask further questions, because i can't explain that more simple ^^
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