Ca3d is a game project, not an engine!

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Ca3d is a game project, not an engine!

Post by Default » 2004-10-02, 15:52

:x
I am very dissapointed. Why I have downloaded more than 100 megs? I don't know. Ca3D is not an engine at all! It is a game project, which somwhere (I didn't found) contains the engine code too, and this code not only is hard to find, but is absolutely undocumented! If I am wrong, please point me where to find API documentation?!
Ca3d is good for only those guys that need to create some screensaver and amaze friends, or at most change map or models in some game and be proud of it.
I examined MTD documentation and found out that I am supposed to create a level, edit models, etc. and, finally run Ca3d.exe, which runs my level the way it likes! There in documetations I could not find not only the API reference, but even such word (API) newer mentioned. It seems Ca3d is aiming at guys that know nothing about programming and are going to write a game with mouse.
As for demo, I must admit it impresses, but without api documentation and any indications how use API, what functions and where to use, it is quite useless for game developers.
If you have not documented API, or don't wand to give avay API secrets, etc. You should tell it before making people download 100 megs of useless garbage. Disgusting!
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Post by scott » 2004-10-02, 17:16

I really dont know why you were expecting to find engine code etc. Its just a tech demo, theres a basic DM game which has source code with it and the tools to add to the game if you so desire. Ca3de is a commercial product, you have to pay if you want to get all the engine code or a proper SDK. The demo is just to show off some of the graphical capabilities, thats it, its not an SDK.
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Post by Kai » 2004-10-02, 17:25

No, Ca3D is an engine and not a game project ..

Im not sure if you had a look on the website.. what you can change/create is a mod for the engine but not the engine itself (for free)
So here is the information that also is written on the website !
1. Making free or private MODs is already covered by the license that governs the Ca3DE demo releases and the Ca3DE-MDK. It essentially says that Ca3DE is licensed for free as long as your MOD is free, and that you may not commercially exploit Ca3DE in any way. The details are given in the Legal section of the Ca3DE user manual.

2. If you want to make a retail game, or use Ca3DE in any commercial context, you need a different license. The commercial license includes the source codes of the Ca3D-Engine core, all libraries, and all map compilers and tools. The details of the license are fixed on an individual basis. The licensing fees will depend on the number of titles you want to sell, on wether you want to pay a fixed price for selling arbitrary many copies, or a much lower fixed price but at an additional percentage per sold copy, and on other factors.

For obtaining detailed information about the price of a commercial license, please contact me at my postal or email address. Thereby, please include as much information about your project as possible.

Here are a few additional notes about the commercial license:
* The contents that ship with the commercial license will enable you to directly modify the user interface, enhance or augment the graphics or network code, or to do anything else you wish.
* You will hardly find another 3D engine with a more cleanly and carefully written C++ source code. Everything is extensively commented, well designed, and thus easy to understand. Nonetheless, the commercial package aims at technically savvy teams.
* The level of provided support is a matter of individual license agreement. For example, I only provided volunteer (but nonetheless extensive!) support for the USAF, and they were very happy with it.
* The C++ compiler used on Windows is the free OpenWatcom C/C++ compiler, see http://www.OpenWatcom.org, and g++ on Linux. Of course, Ca3DE works with other compilers as well.
* Bug fixes and updates will be made available to licensees without further charge.
* No map editor is included with Ca3DE (please refer to the NewMaterials.pdf document for more details).
* Ca3DE currently employs FMOD for its sound and music features. FMOD is © Firelight Technologies, Pty, Ltd. and thus not included with the Ca3DE commercial license.
* Any artwork (textures, maps, models, sounds, ...) that comes with Ca3DE, either in the demo release or the MDK, is owned by its respective author and therefore is not covered by any of the licenses.
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Post by Shadow » 2004-10-02, 18:35

it is an engine, they just provided the game as a demo. look at the code. you will find it is well commented. the commands can problly be found inside the engine header document. next time do a bit of searching first. if you still cannot find the commands or what not then email carsten.
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Post by Default » 2004-10-02, 18:57

I understand it all. Thanx for answers. But if you have examined other engines (even Lithtech) they age givin you engine core dll and lib files, that enables you to actually try the engine, not to sit as idiot, watching game written by other guy. If I need game, there are plenty of them on the market nowadays. May be I am wrong, but I have tried many different engines and term "engine demo" always meant some SDK you may use to create some content and try if the engine suits your need. This is the first time Idownloaded a game thinking I am downloading the engine. I do not see any sense downloading game demo, cause it tells me nothing about engine capabilities, how easy is it to use etc.
One may get even NetImmerse evaluation copy. So I thought Engine demo was demo SDK.
On the other hand there are companies that give you download only game demos created in particular engine, but they call it game demo, not the engine demo.
I think if Carsten adds some more information to downloads description it would be helpful and saves people from downloading wrong files and evaluating wrong engines.
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Post by Shadow » 2004-10-02, 19:04

you can create a game with what you downloaded. the engine dll is there. just not the engine source code. to get that you must purchase the licensed version. from what you downloaded you are more than capable of creating a game. try reading the new materials guide
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Post by Default » 2004-10-02, 19:14

I dont need engine source code. but without documentation it is impossible controle engine behavior. When speaking of API I meant no engine source code, but API functions description. For example how to move camera, coordinates transformation etc. There is not such documentation, so how it may be used? I am a programmer, not a level designer and engine evaluation means evaluation of its API for me. Before deciding byu or not the engine I must know how much it will help me in the game programming.
As for source code, excuse me, but I am not going to spent weeks on examination of game code I never will need again. On my opinion there must be a document which explains how to create a game project: which lib files, which headers include, which fuctions and how use, structures and classes description, if the engine uses them etc. Without this, using the engine will be harder than to write a new one.
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Post by Shadow » 2004-10-02, 23:23

look at the header files, the commands are documented there. why complain about the size of the download and then say more should be included. you make no sense. look in the header files, the commands are there. look in the source of the dmatch game, shows how to use commands if you still dont get it. talk directly to carsten if you are still having troubles
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Re: Ca3d is a game project, not an engine!

Post by Carsten » 2004-10-03, 00:56

Default, I'm sorry that the Ca3D-Engine or its documentation does not meet your expectations, but I think thats probably because you didn't properly read its description on the website, and the description of the download files.

Ca3DE is a game engine.

The engine is controlled/driven/MODified by a "plug-in" DLL.
The engine plus DLL plus artwork define a game/MOD.
The source code to the Ca3DE DeathMatch DLL is included with the Ca3DE-MDK, and is easily found by browsing the directories of the MDK.

The source code is documented by comments that are directly given in the C++ source code header files, and the DeathMatch source code provides a complete, self-contained example for a DLL for your own developments.

Scott, Kai and Shadow already provided very good and exhaustive information in this regard.
Default wrote:Why I have downloaded more than 100 megs?
Because you downloaded the 82 MB engine demo, expected something else, and got the engine demo.
Ca3D is not an engine at all! It is a game project, which somwhere (I didn't found) contains the engine code too,
I'm sorry, all of this is wrong.
and this code not only is hard to find
Ahm, you can hardly open any directory in the Ca3DE-MDK and not find any code. Especially in those labelled with "Code".
but is absolutely undocumented!
Wrong. The C++ source code comments are in fact pretty exhaustive documentation.
Ca3d is good for only those guys that need to create some screensaver and amaze friends, or at most change map or models in some game and be proud of it.
Quite the contrary is true! Ca3DE programming requires good or very good skill levels in C++. Similar is true for creating all kinds of artwork. In fact, many aspects of Ca3DE development require expert knowledge. I'd be happy if more technically or artistic versed people joined the project, see http://www.ca3d-engine.de/Contribute.html for details.
I examined MTD documentation and found out that I am supposed to create a level, edit models, etc. and, finally run Ca3d.exe, which runs my level the way it likes! There in documetations I could not find not only the API reference, but even such word (API) newer mentioned. It seems Ca3d is aiming at guys that know nothing about programming and are going to write a game with mouse.
I'll stop commenting about all your false claims now. Apparently you auto-searched for the phrase "API" in the manual, and when it didn't return any results, you stopped. In any case, it seems you didn't read the chapters about MOD making (Pretty much at the end of the text. Got so far?)

Btw: "API" means Application Programming Interface. We're not exactly programming Applications with Ca3DE, are we? This is why "API" is never mentioned anywhere in the docs.
Disgusting!
You were talking about your style of posting, were you?
Best regards,
Carsten
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Post by Carsten » 2004-10-03, 01:03

Default wrote:For example how to move camera, coordinates transformation etc. There is not such documentation, so how it may be used?
It's all there. See my and others previous posts.
As for source code, excuse me, but I am not going to spent weeks on examination of game code I never will need again. On my opinion there must be a document which explains how to create a game project: which lib files, which headers include, which fuctions and how use, structures and classes description, if the engine uses them etc. Without this, using the engine will be harder than to write a new one.
As I said earlier: The interfaces are documented directly in code. The DeathMatch DLL source code provides examples of its usage. You can study the essentials in less than one day, and doing so will certainly provide you with a more thorough introduction into Ca3DE programming in less time than any dry and formal "API" description.
Best regards,
Carsten
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Post by JRCAL » 2006-05-22, 23:44

This guy sure likes to complain about something he never took part of and is FREE to use. I would also say he's deaf but since this is a reading forum it wont make any sense. But you get the context.
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Post by n321 » 2006-12-08, 07:58

well I still love you Carsten! What a very rude little man......:(
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Post by Carsten » 2006-12-08, 11:26

Thanks for the nice replies.
I'm going to close this thread now though, as I think the topic has long (since 2004) and exhaustively been treated.
Best regards,
Carsten
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